ok guys, I posted this over at AVS but thought I would post it here in a much more "focused" environment" oooooooooof, after much banging around and figuring what I wanna do I think I'm focusing in on the waveguide speakers.... I have a few questions for the masters like Erich and such who have built a lot of these. I was told by ack_bck that the Delta 10 set should pretty handily stomp my Polk Moniter 70's and CS2 center for home theater use. My situation is that the Monitor 70's are just too big for my area (they dip into my projector screen a bit). I have two monster THT's corner loaded that take care of the low end so I crossover at 80 hz on my receiver.[/size]I had Ack_bck mention that I might not seem much difference between the Karma 10's and the Deltalite 12's in my situation because of the 80hz crossover and I won't be using the 12 inch woofers lower frequencies as much. My question to you oh Gods of the waveguids is where is that "sweet spot"??? am I not going to see much difference in upgrading past the karma 10? I mean am I going to see double the improvement in my situation (since it's near double the price between the Karma 10's and the Deltalite 12's)... or maybe go with one of the other "in between" kits? I guess you could say which one is going to be my "best bang for my buck" scenario with the situation I mentioned above.also since I'm powering them with my Onkyo 605 and not an amp where is the stage where I'd have to use an amp instead of my receiver, I noticed the Deltalite 12 and Karma 12 had a big power increase and DIidn't know if I could fully drive them with my onkyo 605
All of these current models use pro style woofers. So you get a couple benefits. They're more efficient than your Polks, so you'll actually get more volume out of the SEOS designs with your receiver. Basically if your Onkyo can power the Polks, it will do even better with the ones here. The power increase between models doesn't have much to do with what size amp you 'should' have powering them. It just means how much you 'could' put to them. Store brands almost always over state what their speakers can handle, so I wouldn't go by that very much. The difference between those Polks and the SEOS designs will be quite something. I personally had the Rti series in my home theater, and there's simply no comparison at all. The waveguide speakers wiped them out. Because you're not 100% sure which model to get, I would lean towards the 10" Delta Pure kit. It's a very nice speaker and priced right in the middle. They'll be such a big step up from your current set up, you won't question anything after hearing them. I personally have the Karma-10's going in my living room right now and they are crazy good for the cost. But I fully understand the dilemma of buying new speakers and would always wonder 'what if' when purchasing the cheapest of the bunch to start off. So I'd shoot for middle ground to get my feet wet. If they meet all your needs, and you see what these things can actually deliver, then go for the Karma-10's for surround duty. If you end up craving more over time, the Delta Pure's can be moved to surround duty and you can get the 12" models. You'll be very pleased with your upgrade either way.
kewl, sounds like I can't go wrong with any of the choices. since I hadn't heard any of them or had any clue on the performance gains I was kinda trying to find out where that point of diminishing returns was with this series. I didn't wanna jump in and grab the biggest and baddest simply because many times when I do that I find out the biggest is 2-3 x the price and only gives you a 10-15% gain (or something like that ) over the other ones lol. out of sheer technical curiosity. what's the performance diff between the Karma 10 and the Deltapure 10? just a slight increase or is it fairly noticeable??? last but not least. if I got a flat pack for the enclosure it says "any 1 cubic foot flatpack" , but you only have a 1.15 cubic foot flatpack in the flatpack section. is that the one I'd get??? and also, with a 3/4 sheet of 4x8 mdf.... how much of the sheet would be used in making the enclosure??? I'm trying to think whether ordering a flatpack makes sense or whether just cutting my own enclosure would be cheaper (I mean if it's only 1/2 a sheet of MDF or 2/3 a sheet it'll be cheaper by fat to make my own, but if it uses a full 4x8 per speaker then it might be easier to just buy a flatpack.)
One 4x8' sheet of mdf is more then enough for two of those enclosures. The Deltapure uses a better woofer with slightly higher sensitivity and the crossover is a little smoother/more refined. It also has a better directivity match between the woofer and waveguide.
ahhh, that makes my decision a little easier, one quesiton about the cutout designs. when cutting out our own enclosures does the plans require us to dado in the cuts for the sides and braces etc or can we "flat cut" them..... (didn't know if the cutout dimensions accounted for the dado's or just gave us plain cut dimensions and let us dado them if we really want to... I'm not sure how to dado without sending them to a CNC place)
No dado necessary. FYI, because you're making your own box, you have more freedom to choose volume and shape. Feel free to ask if you'd like some guidance on that. The Pure has a really smooth cross over. It'll make a good reference point. But I'm biased, which is why I let Erich answer the question. I haven't heard or even seen tech details on the Karma. But I'll say I was very happy with how the delta pure came together.
sweeeet, I'm getting excited now. would it be better to adjust the internal volume on those??? I mean are there advantages to increasing the itnernal volume... I would assume I'd bring the 10 incher closer to xmax with a higher internal volume, but hey, I'm not THAT knowledgeable lol. oooooo, one last stupid question. My Polk M30's that I use as Surrounds right now, will they blend with these SEOS beasts?? I mean I know the waveguide is kinda like a horn so I didn't know if I'd have to get some surrounds immediately or whether I could give my wallet a break and use my Monitor 30's till I replenished the cash flow.
That really depends on your application. Did you want floor standers. Shallow. Short. Ported and large. Small and sealed. If you know the generall shape / size you want, I can give you some advice. If the volume changes on a ported enclosure, the port will have to change to.
hmmm, I was just going with the Delta pure that came with the pre-cut baffle so I was just gonna build it as is I think. I need to mount these on a shelf in the corner 3.5 feet in the air (so they clear my THT subs) anyways so I didn't want the tweeters too high above the head).... oooooo, and of course I have another question. am I limited to MDF being that's what the baffle in the kit is made of or can I use 1/2 inch Baltic birch and the crossovers. are they easy for a newb to walk through building it, or will I be out of my depth if I've never done anything like that before?
If you've built any enclosures before, you won't have any problems making them for these kits. I would just build them to the same dimensions I did and you will be fine. You should stick with 3/4" mdf on these. Oh, and you'll be upgrading your surrounds after hearing these. ;D But you're in luck because there are some 8" models coming.
gosh damn it Erich... you're supposed to tell me that these 3 L/C/R upgrades are all I'll ever need. my wallet just sobbed reading your post. and yeah, I doubt I'll have any troubles with the enclosure. If my buddy and I can build 3 THT's from scratch I think a simple flat cut box should be a piece of cake. Only part I'm slightly nervous about is the crossover since I've never had experience with that kinda wiring
If you do get all 3 up front, you'll be good to go. But my guess is that you'll eventually get hooked and want to upgrade your surrounds. I was talking to one of the forum members a couple days ago about making up some assembled crossovers for these kits. You could always go that route if needed.
sweet, that might be nice too. although if the crossover instructions are pretty detailed we probably shouldn't have a problem assembling them.
lol, and knowing me I'll be posting pics and asking question as I go along (most likely about the crossover too )
oh, I've been meaning to ask. how is the vertical soundstage on these bad boys? right now I have to mount them in the corner with the bottoms of the speakers 3 feet in the air due to my THT subs being corner loaded there. With my Monitor M70's being 42 inches high the tweeters are about 6.5 feet high and that's just a TAD on the high side. with the waveguide am I gonna be in trouble with the Delta pure's being that high up.??? ( I know they're half the height of the polk monitors but I don't know how the waveguide interacts with the room vs. that of a regular tweeter)
One of the main benefits of a waveguide is to work better in the situation you just described. They have a much larger sweet spot than other speakers, which was one of the main reasons these were designed in the first place.
booyah. that's what I was hoping for seems like more and more that these speakers are gonna be my best choice in my limited sized room (sucks only have a 12 foot wide room with such a big screen. ) thinking I should get my order in soon. if I order within the next week how long should I expect the wait to be ??? (I know you were a bit backed up last month)
Here are the measurements for the Delta Pure: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=68.msg647#msg647 You're pretty safe to about 15 to 20 degrees below axis. I wouldn't site anywhere below that. But you are probably safe. If you're sitting 15ft away from your speakers, 15 degrees is 4 ft below the tweeter. That's pretty low. These have fairly good vertical coverage. Above axis is even better. Now, if you have some serious vertical constraints, consider the Delta Max. A quick low cross over of 1150hz and the same spacing means it has a very wide vertical window. I didn't directly measure it due to the weather getting bad here. There's no really good way to measure the vertical indoors. But this speaker was in part designed for surrounds in high output systems. For a surround I'm a big believer in a very wide vertical lobe. The Delta Max does exactly that. But like the Delta Pure, it's more uniform above axis, because most people mount surrounds high and I wanted a uniform reflection off the ceiling. AVS member Java has a nice build thread started on these, and he's using them exactly for their intended purpose. But it may suit your purpose to, considering you're mounting high. How close to the ceiling will these be? If getting close to the ceiling, these will have an advantage because the reflected sound will be uniform with the on axis sound. Hopefully that makes sense and isn't to technical. Let me know if I should explain what I mean better. I should probably post some diagrams or something. I've given the topic a lot of thought lately.
gotcha, I sit about 9 - 10 feet away from the screen (maybe 10 feet -11 feet from the corners where the speakers would be, closer to 10 feet) .... here's a picture of the fronts... it's a lot different now but you get the idea. that DIY 100 inch screen is now 120 inch Draper Cineperm and the black THT that's stacked on top of the other one is now in the opposite corner where that little tower and lamp are (the screen was moved over and down to JUST over the CS2 center right now http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3829/108366full.jpg the ceiling is 8 feet high on the left and 11 feet high on the right (it's a vaulted ceiling with the high end being on the right and the low end being on the left of the screen... I was going to corner mount the SEOS's in the corner on shelves JUST above the height of each THT (about 3 feet off the ground. as you can see with the bottom edge of the new screen about 3 inches above the center speaker my M70's are going over the screen and had to be squeezed in.... (right now I have them one on top of each THT but that puts them WAY up high and the sound is affected.... not only that I wanna secure them since I don't trust my cats to not try and knock them over.
So the bottom of the speaker will be 3ft up? In that case the tweeter height will be maybe 5ft up? Your ears will be about 3 or 4 ft. I think you'll be good. You could always flip them upside down if you wanted to get critical. But I don't think you'll have to. And at this point we're talking a couple db in a narrow range of direct sound. Somewhat insignificant. These should be a good fit for you. Erich may have a shorter baffle to. Then you could port out the sides or rear. Something to consider, if he has it.
yeah, the bottom will be about 3 feet 4 inches off the ground. (just enough clearance to basically be "on top" of my THT's. so you're right, the center of the waveguide will be almost an exact 5 feet up and my head will be 3 feet off the ground (I have a tendency of reclining in my recliners just a little bit so my head is right about the top edge of each THT. flipping them upside down is an interesting thought lol, didn't think of that. although if you really think it's necessary I COULD upgrade to the delta max's ... it's only $60 more total if you think I need the vertical axis differential
I would say, unless you want to really crank on these things, like reference level every night, you'll be fine with the pure. Save your $60 and finish them nice, buy a couple movies, or get some binding posts and stuffing. If the $60 is fairly meaningless to you and you're still under your budget, the Max will do a better job of dealing with your vertical issues. The Max and Pure are really close though. In price and performance. If you choose to save your $60, don't second guess yourself. Either one is the right choice. If not I would have told Erich to only kit one or the other. Either way though, give the upside down some consideration. Your sloped ceilings mean the ceiling reflection is less of an issue. If the looks don't bother you, it's probably a better setup. I may be speaking out of term, but I wouldn't doubt if the Delta Max is the best SEOS design for dealing with vertical issues. It's 10" and crosses really low and steep 6th order. Maybe 8th order, I can't recall right now.
yeah, I usually don't REALLY crank my movies on my speaker level, my bass yes, I tend to run a few db hot, but not the mains/center. sounds like I should I'll stick with the pure's unless someone tells me otherwise. when I build em I'll put them right side up and upside and see which way works better for me. ooooo, and you mentioned stuffing, I was gonna ask if these speakers needed needed some dampening material since I have a big chunk of R-13 insulation lying around. and on a side note, your avatar.... you ride a bike???
The R-13 insulation is fine. I wouldn't waste the money on anything fancy, unless the feeling of that stuff bugs you. I use insulation as well. Ya, I used to race. That's my old bike. Now I have no bike. Got to expensive. Unless you are extremely fast and get a sponsor, you spend thousands. I was extremely slow. This hobby is much cheaper in comparison.